I guess the question is, why are the Minneapolis libraries ailing so? Here we have testimonies from employees of both upper-middle-class/suburban and lower-middle-class/inner-city libraries that say their facilities are doing fine, if not thriving. Meanwhile, according to this article published on MPR's website in 2007, the Minneapolis Public Library had "cut one third of its staff, sharply reduced library hours, and closed three neighborhood branches." (Since then, with the merger of the Minneapolis Public Library and Hennepin County Library, those three branches have re-opened...but still.)
I made it to the final voting round for the library board but ultimately didn't get selected (for reals, check the public record or something). Perhaps if I'd brought up several issues MNSpeak style, I would have made it.
Here's why libraries aren't doing so hot...
1. Liberals are preventing conservatives from bringing guns into libraries in order to the books from being stolen (and costing tax payers more money).
2. Conservatives think libraries are for rich people.
3. There aren't enough walkable libraries.
4. Racism (obvs)
5. Illegal immigration is forcing libraries to get rid of any books written in the English language.
6. Diablo Cody's writing has turned people off from reading.
7. Libraries were better when Rex was here.
8. I guess there were alright when Matt was here.
9. Max, however, destroyed libraries.
10. If libraries gave out bacon bookmarks that would encourage more people to go.
11. Unless it was turkey bacon.
12. Many people try to go to the library but somehow end up in a Rick Astley video instead.
13. People avoid libraries because they contain copies of City Pages.
14. All the libraries in North Minneapolis have been foreclosed.
15. T-Paw vetoed all methods of transport to libraries, including one's feet.
16. People are going to Wisconsin, where you can still smoke in libraries.
17. Michelle Bachmann endorsed libraries so you know nothing good can come out of them.
18. Bikers act like they own the library and need to use hand signals when turning into the stacks.
19. Drivers don't look out for bicycles in the stacks and often force them into the shelves.
20. Rich parents sending their kids to private libraries/suburban libraries ruins neighborhood libraries.
21. No one has any really good Flickr pictures of libraries, so I'm not sure if it's worth going.
22. People like (mnspeaker)
23. Now that Paul Douglas no longer goes to the library, there's just no point in me going.
24. CJ sneaking around the stacks creeps people out.
25. Par Ridder stole all the good ideas from Minneapolis Libraries and used them in St. Paul.
26. They still don't serve bacon at libraries, do they? Just checking.
27. I saw Andrew Zimmern stop by a library on TV and, although he claimed to like the books he was reading, I could totally tell he didn't like them.
28. Inappropriate comment about something sexual/lewd you want to do in/near/on/with the library.
29. Racism (and some anti-semeticism)
30. Illegal immmigrants are checking out all the good books and then they keep renewing them.
31. Because no one understands that white people go to libraries like this, while black people go to the library like that.
32. The downtown library doesn't have that great of a vibe on account of it being so close to the Strib.
33. Afraid that they'll find Republicans cruising in the bathroom.
34. Because, really, we hate your kids (even when they are reading).
35. Because there's still no bacon.
36. No longer welcome after giving books, bookshelves, and (attempting to give) librarians the shocker.
37. There's no skyway connection to any of the libraries.
38. Because they're bitter that farm subsidies are fueling the bookmobile.
It's partly my fault, I owe about $7 in overdue fines and it's escalating as I've got this book that apparently can't be renewed.
No actually I've been to the new library on Lake St. a few times and really there aren't a lot of books there that are relevant to my interests.
»» Submitted by kevin at 6:29 AM on April 15
Firing the entire Minneapolis Library Board after the first financial crisis would have been a good start -- including posting their photos in full-page ads in both dailies under the heading "These are the people who ran a great library system into financial ruin."
Actions have consequences -- at least they should. A running back drops a pass in the end zone during a playoff game and people remember it for years -- our Library officials should get a little more heat for their miscues, too -- up close and personal.
»» Submitted by»»» justpbob at 6:43 AM on April 15
39. Ethanol
40. No Rake? Why bother!
XXX to Bix for her efforts to join the Board and make a difference. Our loss she wasn't selected.
»» Submitted by»»» justpbob at 6:48 AM on April 15
A running back drops a pass in the end zone during a playoff game and people remember it for years
Darrin Nelson, January 17, 1988.
»» Submitted by»»» mazasapa at 7:34 AM on April 15
That's not as bad as Gary "Goat Boy" Anderson missing the only field goal he had to make all year in that game against the Falcons.
January 17, 1999
»» Submitted by The Rat at 7:43 AM on April 15
I call B.S. The article in the rake cited no meaningful stat of actual library usage until the very end when he said circulation was up! He did not cite walk in traffic per open hour or computer usage stats. He just had a sense of dread about the libray because of some articles he read a year ago.
The libraries are fine, the money part is what sucks. The funding structure for mpls public was stupid, with most of its budget coming from state LGA money of course they tanked. Damn shame too as their collection was/is stellar and their staff is dynamite. It's a much broader collection thant the popular fiction heavy HCPL collectioin.
It seems to me the Mpls libraries and park systems are very much the same: great facilities that the public loves but are continually being closed down/restructured, with good staff that are being laid off or moved around.
I agree with Bob only to a certain extent about the Library Board's culpability. The Library Board had no taxing authority, and if you don't have authority to tax, you don't have any meaningful authority. The blame for the situation with the Minneapolis Libraries, to my mind, belongs squarely to the City Council, and in particular, the inability to get along with the Governor and the Legislature.
The state cut substantial aid to cities after the city had passed the bond issue for the new central library and for renovation of many branches. Rather than close libraries, as it probably should have done long ago, the Library Board decided to keep them all open for many fewer hours. Finally, last year, they closed three (but, I suspect, only because the merger with the county was imminent and promises to reopen them had been made.) The idiotic Minneapolis library governance system provided cover for both the board and the council and they both could blame the other body for whatever happened.
Finally, as is increasingly obvious, Pawlenty hates the cities. The line item veto last year struck out a paltry sum for the integration of the computer systems of Minneapolis and Hennepin county libraries.
As for figures, there are plenty of them out there, but I have to walk the dog and can't look them up right now.
(disclosure: I'm on the Board of the Friends of the Minneapolis Library. If you want to really help, join us.)
One more thing Kevin, if you want depth of collection, go to Central. The branch libraries are weak (almost the entire collection budget of MPL has been provided solely by the Friends for the past several years.) Central has been, essentially, a research library for the entire state, (which is why many believed it should be paid for by the state) while the branches specialize in the "popular" stuff.
Spaceman, you said it. Theparks, libraries and other city amenities are designed from the time that the city population was half a million in the '50's. They have had to survive with 100,000+ fewer citizens paying for their use. But I thought it was telling that the suburban kids were coming to the central library to use their reference collection. Is there a way we can charge them for using our library or our parks? I don't know about you, but I don't drive out to woodbury to walk around a lake.
»» Submitted by Lunch! at 8:34 AM on April 15
Kevin could also use ILL ferchrissakes. If the library does not have the book they can borrow it from another library or another system for you. Pretty basic library service.
»» Submitted by Lunch! at 8:37 AM on April 15
I started going to North Regional library in North Mpls when I was 5 and occasionally I'd go to Sumner (also over North). I would sometimes take the bus downtown to the main library because they had the best selection of books but some time around Middle School my mom took me to Brookdale Library and that's the one I've been going to since. Since my mom also reads a ton I think she liked going there because they have a great selection of books *and* plenty of parking. When they started opening on Sundays seasonally it got even better. Now that they're open all the time on Sundays even better.
Also, I like how I can use my library card to use various research databases for free through HC library. I was suffering from database withdrawl after graduation. Does anyone know if I can do this via Mpls libraries?
As for the library board, I'm wondering if anyone has any insight into how the get down to the last few votes. For example this it what part of the voting looked like:
Vote 1: Person A
Person A elected unanimously
Vote 2: Person B, Bixby
Person B elected on 5-2 vote
Vote 3: Person C, Person D
Person D elected on 4-3 vote
I'm thinking that they did voting by area of residence because I couldn't figure out any other reason they wouldn't put people who lost back on the short list and vote again.
Anyway, according to a well-connected source who saw the shortlist, all the people who were eventually elected were pretty connected in town. I'm not sure what exactly this means but hopefully things will change under the new merger.
who goes to the library anymore? We have the internet now, no need to go to use card catalogs.
Google is putting all the books online, so libraries will be obsolete in 10 years.
»» Submitted by techgeek at 8:59 AM on April 15
Yeah but books are free at libraries.
Google will probably make you pay for books.
»» Submitted by tinnie at 9:01 AM on April 15
Meanwhile St Paul libraries are better than ever, and Central Library downtown St Paul has Sunday hours! SUNDAY! How many libraries keep Sunday hours, especially a downtown one!
Finally, as is increasingly obvious, Pawlenty hates the cities. The line item veto last year struck out a paltry sum for the integration of the computer systems of Minneapolis and Hennepin county libraries.
I guess when you overspend and build the central library and the city could not afford it it is the governors fault. The people of mpls elect these morons wake up. By the way I went to the down town library it had very little in the way of material don't kid yourself
»» Submitted by swandog at 9:13 AM on April 15
Put all the books you want online, there is nothing like the feel of a book in hand. People will always need books and libraries, but libraries do need to change their model a bit.
But the Minneapolis Central Library is amazing. I was a volunteer for awhile, until work got in the way. They have the largest collection of automotive manuals outside of Detroit and the largest collection of Cookbooks in the US, IIRC. There was something else they had the most or best of, I can't remember.
Swandog evidently can't count up to three million, which is how many pieces of material are in Central Library.
Also, the bond issue was passed when the MPL got lots of state aid--under the theory that it was a state resource. The financial crisis occurred when the state aid was withdrawn.
And yes, wasn't it nice of the taxpayers of Minneapolis to voluntarily vote to raise their own taxes to pay for a state resource, something they didn't get to do for a baseball stadium.
By the way I went to the down town library it had very little in the way of material
Were all the Vince Flynn novels checked out?
»» Submitted by The Rat at 9:39 AM on April 15
The line item veto last year struck out a paltry sum for the integration of the computer systems of Minneapolis and Hennepin county libraries.
I think it was $5 million. It also came after numerous promises that no state money would be required.
»» Submitted by kevin at 9:42 AM on April 15
And yes, wasn't it nice of the taxpayers of Minneapolis to voluntarily vote to raise their own taxes to pay for a state resource
Once built, did they vote to lock the damn thing up?
»» Submitted by The Rat at 9:43 AM on April 15
Yes Bixby you can use MPL databases remotely with your library card.
And google books making libraries obsolete makes me laugh. If books were the only reason people used the library, they would have been extinct years ago. It's about vetted/selected information organized and accessible to users of any ability for free. The medium does not matter. 100 years ago the largest circulating items in a library collection were sheet music, nowadays it's dvds. But circulating items are only part of the information mix at the library. You throw in databases both in and outside of the library, as well as phone and email reference the libraries in the cities get used, heavily.
»» Submitted by Lunch! at 9:46 AM on April 15
who goes to the library anymore? We have the internet now, no need to go to use card catalogs.
Card catalogs are SO 1970s.
»» Submitted by»»» mnblrmkr at 9:46 AM on April 15
I haven't been to the new library so maybe they already have done this...but the reason that I don't go to libraries any more is the fact that they are so sterile. I know people will say that I am crazy for it but I want a vibrant library... a place where people gather to discuss, interact, research and conduct business.
It think people are afraid to go to the library because of the perceived austerity involved...instead they go to starbucks and log on.
I know I will be skewered for this but " I think you should be able to answer your phone in a library" why does it have to be a sacred place. Its a center for knowledge, shouldn't communication go hand in hand with knowledge?
I am all for phone free zones with in the library but I think in order for libraries to survive they must get on board with the open office lwork style embraced by todays knowledge worker.
Yeah I love hearing about your case of syphillus in the library. I am so glad you made it to the clinic and stuff, really. For every discrete phone user there will be an ahole in the too much info crowd.
It's not a sacred place, merely one of the remaining places where your conversations do not intrude on my day. But really you must not get to too many libraries, or never really did. They have had since the 70's a mix of spaces, some for quiet work, and some for more social pursuits. Personnally I like a library like the Rose reading room in the NYPL, or the JJHill Library in St. Paul. If I wanted to socialize I'd go to a bar.
»» Submitted by Lunch! at 10:00 AM on April 15
I think you should be able to answer your phone in a library
you can, and most people do. never heard any "knowledge-based" conversations, however. most of the garbage i heard would make a sailor wince. it's why i quit going.
»» Submitted by cubbie at 10:01 AM on April 15
I think RL wants the library to bustle.
»» Submitted by The Rat at 10:02 AM on April 15
but the reason that I don't go to libraries any more is the fact that they are so sterile.
Go to the Franklin Library. Total chaos. Not a place for studying at all. It is great.
The Downtown Library can be a little quiet, but it doesn't have to be. You can talk on your phone, you can have a small group session. There is a teen room that I'm sure isn't quiet. The only real rules are no sleeping and no causing a disturbance (swearing, taking your clothes off, screaming). They also don't like people putting thier feet on the furniture.
They bustle big time. You should see them especially the branches during story time or summer vacation.
»» Submitted by Lunch! at 10:04 AM on April 15
I guess the last library I was at was ridgedale...and I felt like I had to go outside to talk on my phone. Their is a coffee shop but there its sort of between the library and the offices. Maybe I am the only one.
I think the coffee/ snack shop should be in the middle...I honestly think that a lot of the library patrons of yore are know with a laptop nestled in at a starbucks, caribou, dunn brothers...
And I am telling you that by any measurable data point, the library patrons are at the library! Circulation, buts in seats, people in the door, remote reference questions, computer usage, all are up big time in the MSP area. Libraries are only ghost-towns in the mind of some folks who do not go to them and spout off about them.
»» Submitted by Lunch! at 10:18 AM on April 15
Also, the bond issue was passed when the MPL got lots of state aid--under the theory that it was a state resource. The financial crisis occurred when the state aid was withdrawn.
And yes, wasn't it nice of the taxpayers of Minneapolis to voluntarily vote to raise their own taxes to pay for a state resource, something they didn't get to do for a baseball stadium.
So the bond issue gets passed but it really does not cover the full extent of the cost associated with the library. Nice bail out by the state government. But the library I used to live by closed, great use of resources by the Minneapolis city government. You can count any anything in the financial spectrum to be screwed up by the leaders of Mpls., it is one thing you can always count on.
Yea I agree the stadium was wrong and another thing that the leadership of mpls did not fight against hard enough. go figure..
»» Submitted by swandog at 10:32 AM on April 15
Meanwhile St Paul libraries are better than ever, and Central Library downtown St Paul has Sunday hours! SUNDAY! How many libraries keep Sunday hours, especially a downtown one!
The downtown Minneapolis one will be, starting in June.
»» Submitted by v at 10:42 AM on April 15
I felt like I had to go outside to talk on my phone.
"Whatcha doin'?"
"Nothin' Whatchu doin."
"I'm at the library."
"Whatcha wanna do?"
"I don't know. Whatchu wanna do?"
»» Submitted by The Rat at 10:53 AM on April 15
I still don't understand why people think talking on cell phones is any more annoying than people having a conversation with the person next to them. If hte person is talking that loudly on the phone, it's unlikely that they're going to have any more awareness conversing in person. Either way, you're going to get the details of their syphilis.
»» Submitted by»»» mnblrmkr at 11:03 AM on April 15
mnblrmkr, aren't you HOH?
»» Submitted by cubbie at 11:07 AM on April 15
yeah, so?
»» Submitted by»»» mnblrmkr at 11:15 AM on April 15
Swandog, I fear it would be useless to try to explain the difference between capital budget and operating budget, but, if you actually care, you could look it up...maybe at a library.
Swandog: the funds for the capital budget come out of your right pocket, while the funds for the operating budget come out of your left pocket.
»» Submitted by»»» mazasapa at 11:27 AM on April 15
Swandog, I fear it would be useless to try to explain the difference between capital budget and operating budget, but, if you actually care, you could look it up...maybe at a library.
I do understand it but you don't understand that tax dollars are tax dollars who cares what budget it comes from it is still money mpls takes to fund an over-sized budget. When the state does not bail them out the cry like babies.
»» Submitted by swandog at 11:29 AM on April 15
I still don't understand why people think talking on cell phones is any more annoying than people having a conversation with the person next to them.
It's due to lack of audio feedback from the earpieces that people talk louder on a cell phone than a landline or a conversation. So they have little idea of the volume that they are speaking. The annoying things about that are two-fold in my opinion: noise and obliviousness. They are loud and have no idea how loud they are. If you tell them, they look at you like you are attempting to eat their children.
»» Submitted by Lunch! at 11:45 AM on April 15
I heart the library too, it is my special place. This love of libraries was instilled in me as a child. Every week my mom would take me and my little sister to the library. I would race down the stairs to the childrens/young adult section and lose myself in the aisles for hours. We were allowed to check out as many books as we wanted. I was the geeky little girl tottering up to the check out desk with a stack of books higher than my head. It was a place to escape, to dream, to learn, and to go to magical places. One of my favorite memories of the library is when I discovered the Andrew Lang Fairy Books. It was like stumbling across a hidden treasure. I worked my way through all 12 colors.
So anyway, libraries have sentimental value for me, and I don't think I'm the only one!
If you tell them, they look at you like you are attempting to eat their children.
Oh, man, do I know that look.
Uh, I mean ... er ...
I DON'T EAT KIDS.
»» Submitted by»»»msparber at 12:05 PM on April 15
norwego, I'm with you.
We spent the summers at the library. We would ride our bikes up to the Brookdale Library and spend hours there. Partly, because they had air conditioning, and we didn't, but mostly for the books. We could check out as many books as we could carry home on our bikes.
Who needs 100 books? Even Abe Sapien can only read, like, eight per day.
»» Submitted by»»»msparber at 12:13 PM on April 15
When he was a kid, The Rat liked TV. Lotsa stories all day. The library was for girls.
»» Submitted by The Rat at 12:37 PM on April 15
I liked to read a little bit of some books and a little bit of others. Plus, I read all the time. I read Roots in third grade. And, FYI, I don't recommend letting third graders read that book. I went through a mildly militant (for a third grade - fifth grade prep schooler) black power movement following that.
Yeah, I ahd almost exactly the same experience, except after reading The Turner Diaries.
»» Submitted by»»»msparber at 12:40 PM on April 15
Swan and Maz: multiple choice question for you: There should be public libraries. Yes or No.
While your at it, public schools? Public roads? State colleges and universities? Police? Military? Huge subsidies for business, such as ethanol, etc. Hockey arenas in republican districts?
Public libraries - No. It's not the role of government to provide you with reading material. Go buy a book at your neighborhood bookstore.
Public schools - No. It's not the role of government to indoctrinate the children. See private schools.
Public roads - Yes. see the commerce clause. Also, national defense is aided with passable roads for tanks and troop carriers if we were ever invaded - a constitutional provision.
State colleges and universities - No. It's not the role of government to subsidize a person's professional development. See private post secondary education.
Police - Yes. It is the role of government to protect my rights to life, liberty and pursuit of private property.
Military - Yes. It is the role of government to protect it's citizens against all enemies, foreign and domestic.
Subsidies for business - No. It's not the role of government to subsidize any private enterprise, in effect picking winners and losers in the marketplace.
Income tax is a tax on labor and is immoral.
Charging user fees or sales tax is a voluntary tax and therefore a legitimate way to fund the legitimate roles of government.
»» Submitted by»»» mazasapa at 12:57 PM on April 15
I'm sorry, but who is making these rules, Maz?
»» Submitted by»»»msparber at 12:59 PM on April 15
Charging user fees or sales tax is a voluntary tax and therefore a legitimate way to fund the legitimate roles of government.
Does voting for a tax, such as a bond issue, qualify as legitimate?
Also, doesn't educating the people fall under promoting commerce?
I recommend the book Quiet Please: Dispatches From A Public Librarian by Scott Douglas. I just finished reading it two nights ago and it's pretty good. It also addresses a lot of issues about the role of the public library. Mostly, it's entertaining though.
Voting for a tax is tyranny of the majority over the minority.
"Educating" people means different things to different people. What happens now is more indoctrination than education.
»» Submitted by»»» mazasapa at 1:04 PM on April 15
Aw, why question him? He's another libertarian whose understanding of government begins and end with his belief that he shouldn't be taxed. despite his identification as a Republican, he has (as Swandog has) rejected the very notion of a democratic government, and would prefer to see a world where the only law is free market. Except, of course, for any tax that directly benefits them, which they support, and is the fair and proper job of government.
It's like trying to discuss math with someone who believes that counting is immoral.
I can see what Maz is saying, in strict Constitutional sense. I'm no expert on the Constitution, but the more I learn, the happier I am the U.S. doesn't seem to follow it to the letter. If that were the case, I don't know if I'd want to live here.
It's a fine, handsome document, but society is a good deal messier. I always figured it's never going to be perfectly in line with Constitutional ideals, so you strike a rough balance.
»» Submitted by The Rat at 1:10 PM on April 15
Public libraries - No. It's not the role of government to provide you with reading material. Go buy a book at your neighborhood bookstore.
Public schools - No. It's not the role of government to indoctrinate the children. See private schools.
State colleges and universities - No. It's not the role of government to subsidize a person's professional development. See private post secondary education.
Well, seeing that many of the founding fathers were invloved in establishing public schools, public libraries, and public colleges,I don't think they'd have a problem with them.
Each of these are important for developing and maintaining an educated populace. Something the Founders thought essential for ensuring the survival of a free republic.
»» Submitted by»»» mnblrmkr at 1:10 PM on April 15
What happens now is more indoctrination than education.
Conservatives don't seem to be concerned about it, because there doesn't seem to be many who care enough to get involved as professional educators.
Doesn't pay well enough, I suppose.
»» Submitted by The Rat at 1:13 PM on April 15
"Educating" people means different things to different people.
I only make the constitional points to illustrate to people how far we've come since the founding fathers envisioned a free society. This is most stark to those who have been conditioned to believe that the government is there to provide all things to all people. The ones who honestly believe that health care, for example, is a constitutional right. I don't want or expect a strict constructionist society. I only trot it out on occasion to cause people to see why people are opposed to their nanny state.
»» Submitted by»»» mazasapa at 1:15 PM on April 15
So you're admitting that you are arguing in bad faith. What a surprise.
When conservatives bandy about the accusations that schools (especially higher ed) are liberal bastions, it's often followed by the question: then why don't more conservatives dedicate their lives to teaching?
To the day, I've never heard a very satisfying response.
Voting for a tax is tyranny of the majority over the minority.
You could make the same argument about a vote on anything. How about the tyranny of the majority over the minority of 6th district voters with the election of Michelle Bachmann?
What happens now is more indoctrination than education.
Conservatives don't seem to be concerned about it, because there doesn't seem to be many who care enough to get involved as professional educators.
Doesn't pay well enough, I suppose.
Are those the same conservatives that complain about how public school teachers are rolling in the money and living on easy street?
»» Submitted by»»» mnblrmkr at 1:19 PM on April 15
I think conservatives ought to be ashamed that so few of their numbers are interested in shaping young minds.
Other people are, and if the schools are top-heavy with liberals it's not their problem.
»» Submitted by The Rat at 1:20 PM on April 15
Public libraries - No. It's not the role of government to provide you with reading material. Go buy a book at your neighborhood bookstore.
Public schools - No. It's not the role of government to indoctrinate the children. See private schools.
State colleges and universities - No. It's not the role of government to subsidize a person's professional development. See private post secondary education.
You realize that libraries actually serve a other functions besides repositories for books, right? You know how you want your property protected. Well, libraries can serve to get some kids off the street and doing something productive. Something that might spark their interest and lead to them going to college [see later college point]. Less idealistically,
libraries serve the purpose of allowing all members of a community access to information that they might not be able to afford/find on their own.
Furthermore, if you allow libraries to become strictly the domain of private institutions, you're going to end up with people shut out of some great resources [See Harvard Library]. Additionally, libraries tend to house collections of books that are no longer in print or are especially difficult to get one's hands on. How should we go about finding those? Amazon can't help us all the time.
And suppose that everyone went to private schools for K-12. No matter how rich your school is, you're (hopefully) going to need to go to the library or have access to certain databases. School libraries tend to suck, even at rich boarding schools with insane endowments. In fact, my college relied heavily on interlibrary loan and was part of several consortia (is that the correct pluralization?) and, often, I was only able to get ILL books from public library systems.
As for the college argument, when a state subsidizes one's professional development, it helps them develop into a professional and professionals tend to have professional jobs, which pay professional money. So, while some people go to private schools where they can afford it or are (damn) lucky to get good financial aid, the government helps even more people turn into professionals.
Professionals who pay taxes that help fund the shit you think they actually should be funding.
I mean, then again, who the hell needs an educated/informed public?
Conservatives don't seem to be concerned about it, because there doesn't seem to be many who care enough to get involved as professional educators.
maz = professional educator
»» Submitted by»»» mazasapa at 1:22 PM on April 15
All right, this could easily turn into another of our endless, and useless, referendums about the flaws of conservativism versus the flaws of liberalism. But Maz doesn't really represent conservativism, and neither does swandog. They both represent a radical fringe that opposes democracy if it costs any money.
Let us continue this discussion with the assumption that was shared by the founding fathers, that libraries are a good and necessary element of the creation of an educated populace, which is vital and necessary for a democracy, and not let the two people who hate libraries because it costs them a dollar a year define the discussion.
All right, this could easily turn into another of our endless, and useless, referendums about the flaws of conservativism versus the flaws of liberalism.
Conservatives do things like this, while Liberals do things like that.
It's due to lack of audio feedback from the earpieces that people talk louder on a cell phone than a landline or a conversation. So they have little idea of the volume that they are speaking. The annoying things about that are two-fold in my opinion: noise and obliviousness. They are loud and have no idea how loud they are. If you tell them, they look at you like you are attempting to eat their children.
Well, to hear people complain about talkers on the bus and in restaurants, I don't think it matters if they're talking to someone on the phone or in person.
The only time cell phones would bother me, is if you are out with a person and they keep taking calls.
I'd let a couple of calls slide by, but after the third, I would probably leave after telling them that it's clear that either you don't have the time, or interest.
If there were some kind of emergency like a sick kid, I would let a couple more calls slide by, but even then, there would be a point where, I would have to say, "let's try again when you don't have more important concerns."
»» Submitted by»»» mnblrmkr at 1:36 PM on April 15
If you would prefer our usual discussion, Rat, I can give you a version that you can just cut out and paste to the computer screen. Here it is:
Max posts topic.
Regardless of topic, Swandog says if it costs taxes, he's agin it.
Regardless of topic, Maz says something about how conservatives are great, or liberals are stupid.
People argue with Maz, who changes tactics every time he is called on a clear point, and eventually just wanders away when he's satisfied that he has stirred up enough nonsense.
People argue with Swandog, who makes sounds like a bully impersonating someone who is crying, except with misspellings.
People mock conservatives.
Rinse, repeat.
There you go. Now can the rest of us get on with a reasoned conversation?
then why don't more conservatives dedicate their lives to teaching?
To the day, I've never heard a very satisfying response.
»» Submitted by »»» nateek
Unions, Nate. We don't join unions.
»» Submitted by»»» mazasapa at 1:41 PM on April 15
I don't go to them much. One one occasion that I did, some guy stood up in the middle of the reading area and started yelling about the Gestapo. I went to the bathroom, on another occasion some guy was doing something I didn't care to see. It involve his hands, his pants and one of those blower driers.
Do they let people look at porn on the Internet in the libraries? I don't think that's right.
If libraries truly serve a higher purpose and elevate society in some lofty way that everyone talks about, let's get some order in the place.
»» Submitted by The Rat at 1:49 PM on April 15
They do sometimes seem like homeless shelters. There are librarian blogs out there, and they always seem to have a hard time coming to terms with the number of mentally ill people who hang around.
All right, this could easily turn into another of our endless, and useless, referendums about the flaws of conservativism versus the flaws of liberalism. But Maz doesn't really represent conservativism, and neither does swandog. They both represent a radical fringe that opposes democracy if it costs any money.
I do not oppose democracy. I accept that people vote for who they want to. That does not mean that I agree with the policies of those they vote for all the time. I tend to vote for conservatives on tax policy but do not agree all the time with them on social policy. What I am sick of and feel you are Max is an extremest on the other side of the political spectrum. I have yet to read where you have disagreed with a tax and/or spending program. I do not attack you personally but I do not agree with you. I think what scares many on this site is that their are people that do not want to redistribute income across the entire society. You many not agree with this premise but I am sick of the idea that every tax increase is somehow tied to a free society and democracy. The accusation that tax policy and your willingness to accept said tax policy is somehow a litmus test as to weather or not you are for or against democracy is wrong. Furthermore the fury of you and others comes down when I and or maz points out how the tax policy (in this case the library) is a joke and failed, god forbid that tax dollars be spent wisely.
»» Submitted by swandog at 1:53 PM on April 15
then why don't more conservatives dedicate their lives to teaching?
it's because i don't want to work in a job where i'm paid the same no matter how well i perform. that never makes sense to me. recently i got a new job where i'll double my old salary, and it's tied to performance. i'm working rings around my old self - traveling, living out of a hotel, working long hours, exhausted...but i'm so much happier than i was before - i had gotten complacent. i think the teacher pay structure breeds complacency.
the funny thing is i'm doing it so i can send my son to a private school.
»» Submitted by cubbie at 1:55 PM on April 15
blahblahblah...tax bad, my money mine! blahblahblah....
You don't know my politics. I have neither posted agreement or disagreement with most political posts on this site. I happen to support libraries in this case, but that makes me an average American, rather than an extremist.
I also like going to the Central Library and getting a huge pile of books to page through while sitting on the north side in the comfy chairs and all the windows. Once I'm done, I get to leave them there and someone else reshelves them.
You don't know my politics. I have neither posted agreement or disagreement with most political posts on this site. I happen to support libraries in this case, but that makes me an average American, rather than an extremist
I like libraries to. I would and did point out that the downtown library was a mistake, the outcome was other libraries closed. The closing of the libraries was a direct result of overspending. My point is I liked the local library and the one built in mpls closed it due to piss poor financial management on the part of the politicians.
»» Submitted by swandog at 1:58 PM on April 15
Well, then, in this instance, we shall have to add some additional marks in red ink on The Rat's MnSpeak conversation printout.
Do they let people look at porn on the Internet in the libraries? I don't think that's right.
So speaks The Puritan. It's people like The Rat who closed down the theaters in Shakesphere's day.
»» Submitted by»»» justpbob at 2:01 PM on April 15
i think the teacher pay structure breeds complacency.
Not with any of the teachers I know. Evenings and weekends spent grading papers, preparing lesson plans; summers spent obtaining continuing education credits in order to meet their licensing requirements and working second jobs to bridge the gap between the end and start of classes.
»» Submitted by»»» mnblrmkr at 2:03 PM on April 15
The homeless have so little all ready, it would be cruel to take away Jenna Jameson too.
Not with any of the teachers I know. Evenings and weekends spent grading papers, preparing lesson plans; summers spent obtaining continuing education credits in order to meet their licensing requirements and working second jobs to bridge the gap between the end and start of classes
Spending the summers in europe, then retiring with full benefits at 52.
»» Submitted by»»» mazasapa at 2:05 PM on April 15
Do they let people look at porn on the Internet in the libraries? I don't think that's right.
Who gets to define it?
»» Submitted by»»» mnblrmkr at 2:05 PM on April 15
*Svenned.*
I can't help but think of Mallrats and Mr Svenning getting the stink palm then eating those drippy chocolate covered pretzels.
»» Submitted by Mpls Simpleton at 2:05 PM on April 15
Spending the summers in europe, then retiring with full benefits at 52.
So you're bitter that they get summer vacation and get to retire early? Sounds like a smart career move to me...besides, most of my teachers taught summer school or got a second job.
Spending the summers in europe, then retiring with full benefits at 52.
Again, not any of the teachers I've ever known. I've lost count of all the teachers I've had or known that worked well into their 60s.
And if they manage to squirrel enough away to take a trip to Europe, so what?
»» Submitted by»»» mnblrmkr at 2:11 PM on April 15
Spending the summers in europe, then retiring with full benefits at 52.
Maybe the case for your old timey generation, but it sure as hell isn't how it is now.
»» Submitted by mb@work at 2:11 PM on April 15
I've never known any teacher who this described. But Maz hasn't provided any link showing that this is the average experience of the teacher, so it is fair to assume that once again he is just making stuff up, and has successful derailed the discussion.
The people who work in the library. And they get broad discretion.
The next time one of the aficionados of the erotic arts goes to catholichighschoolgirlsintrouble.com they should be able to kick his skanky ass out of the library.
»» Submitted by The Rat at 2:15 PM on April 15
I have three different neighbors (two are married to each other) who were teachers in the St. Paul school district who retired at 52 with full benefits. Some "30-year rule" or something.
»» Submitted by»»» mazasapa at 2:15 PM on April 15
I knew a guy who ate a squirrel. He was from Iowa. Therefore, all Iowans are squirrel eaters.
so it is fair to assume that once again he is just making stuff up
Or, as his wont, he's taking a single individual he knew, and insisting that is the true, and unalterable reality everywhere. (and his example was probably either an heir, or married to a multi-millionaire.
»» Submitted by»»» mnblrmkr at 2:20 PM on April 15
I knew a guy who ate a squirrel. He was from Iowa. Therefore, all Iowans are squirrel eaters.
Porn is part of the American experience. It is information/entertainment that is part of our collected knowledge. Libraries collect information and entertainment.
The kids' computers don't need it for sure, but filtering content on the adult computers is ridiculous.
»» Submitted by filters suck at 2:23 PM on April 15
who were teachers
Key words there maz. I'm sure their contracts were signed decades ago and do not in any way shape or form represent what the current St. Paul teachers experience.
I know this because I'm married to one.
And now I join the ranks of ignoring you for good.
»» Submitted by mb@work at 2:25 PM on April 15
Who gets to define it?
The people who work in the library. And they get broad discretion.
That made some sense when books and magazine subscriptions were competing for scarce collection acquisition funds, and decisions had to be made under some priority.
That's less so with internet.
You picked a pretty easy example, Rat. There are going to be far more gray areas. Should some librarian, exercising his or her "broad discretion" get to kick someone out for accessing "Savage Love?" What about accessing examples of Jeff Koons' work? Or one of the more explicit safe sex brochures that various government and private agencies produce?
»» Submitted by»»» mnblrmkr at 2:28 PM on April 15
My opinion is that librarians have better things to do than wipe slooge off of computer screens, but maybe I'm a prudish puritan or whatever.
Porn is part of the American experience. It is information/entertainment that is part of our collected knowledge. Libraries collect information and entertainment.
That is some of the most pretentious rot I've ever read.
»» Submitted by The Rat at 2:28 PM on April 15
Oh, and I think libraries ought to collect the best porn just like they collect the best everything else. I'm not opposed to closed stacks. Last I checked, you could read a Playboy at a Hennepin County library.
»» Submitted by filters suck at 2:29 PM on April 15
Porn is part of the American experience. It is information/entertainment that is part of our collected knowledge. Libraries collect information and entertainment.
I don't know if I would classify hardcore DP as a part of our collected knowledge...more of a cultural experience. I'm conflicted about the availablity of it in libraries. I mean, if Central doesn't set out Hustler for those of us to check out, why should they allow porn sites?
Telling someone you're ignoring them is not ignoring them, Allie.
You wanna ignore Maz, I don't care.
»» Submitted by The Rat at 2:35 PM on April 15
I mean, if Central doesn't set out Hustler for those of us to check out, why should they allow porn sites?
Because the option is to filter. The most famous example of the problem with filtering is breast cancer information sites being blocked. Filters are more sophisticated than that now, I'm sure, but the vendors refuse to release the list of sites that they block, so who knows what else you don't get to see?
»» Submitted by filters suck at 2:37 PM on April 15
I mean, if Central doesn't set out Hustler for those of us to check out, why should they allow porn sites?
Like I said, that makes sense when you're making acquisition decisions under a limited funds restraint. You don't really have that problem with the internet.
And hard core porn is a pretty bright line.
What I'm concerned about are the less clear lines: the breast cancer example above, general sexuality information, art works (I sure as hell don't want the Rat being the arbitrator of what art can and can not be accessed.). I'd even through Playboy into the gray area: They've published works by a good number of important authors, some of their interviews have had impacts (Jimmy Carter's "lust in my heart" interview anyone?)
»» Submitted by»»» mnblrmkr at 2:47 PM on April 15
I sure as hell don't want the Rat being the arbitrator of what art can and can not be accessed.
That's too bad, because I'd do a damn good job. I'd make sound decisions and I wouldn't dither a lot.
»» Submitted by The Rat at 2:52 PM on April 15
maz: Rule of 90. It doesn't exist anymore. Don't worry about that.
hardcore porn: some library has to collect it. It does have educational value in terms of anthropology, sociology, human sexuality and history. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean that it shouldn't be collect and catalogged.
Maz, I draw your attention to the University of Virginia, a public university founded by Thomas Jefferson, and which contains the following on its "brief history" page:
"Thomas Jefferson set to work on building plans that would mirror his philosophical vision....At the head of the shared lawn would stand the library (not, as in most other colleges and universities of the time, a chapel)..."
If you click on the link at the bottom of that page, you'll also find that there's the University of Georgia, charted as a public university in 1785, and the University of North Carolina, chartered as a public University in 1789.
»» Submitted by»»» mnblrmkr at 4:05 PM on April 15
You don't think we've learned anything about the Victorian Era's true attitudes towards sex by having access to their porn? kc is right.
Why do we care.
»» Submitted by kevin at 4:07 PM on April 15
Jefferson was a liberal.
»» Submitted by»»» mazasapa at 4:08 PM on April 15
America's biggest problem: We keep electing the wrong Clinton!
Elect G. Clinton, and he'll bring back Parliment!
»» Submitted by»»» justpbob at 4:29 PM on April 15
You don't think we've learned anything about the Victorian Era's true attitudes towards sex by having access to their porn? kc is right.
Why do we care.
Knowing where we come from can help us explain where we are and where we're going, and even, God forbid, help us decide where we want to go.
»» Submitted by»»» mnblrmkr at 4:38 PM on April 15
Seriously? Or am I missing a joke?
»» Submitted by kevin at 4:44 PM on April 15
I gotta say that filters suck. Librarians professional ethics tie their hands- they're in the information business not the censorship racket. You would think that people would police their own behavior, but people on the fringes of society have no baseline normative behaviors to model.
I think having to work day in and day out in an environment where people use their 15 minutes of computer time to look at obscene displays would be less than ideal. Unfortunately it's hard to sue the hobos and a-hole patrons at the library for making a hostile work environment, so sometimes libraries get sued by their workers. Recently public libraries started using those privacy screens like some people use on their laptops.
Would someone reopen the asylums and get the crazy bums off the street already. They stink and they are not even nice.
»» Submitted by Lunch! at 4:46 PM on April 15
Seriously? Or am I missing a joke?
Maybe, but Victorian morality is frequently trotted out in contemporary society as some golden age, and their private lives were anything but normal.
»» Submitted by Lunch! at 4:48 PM on April 15
Just because you are uncurious about certain aspects of history doesn't mean everyone is, Kevin. The study of history is, for the most part, the act of rooting around in garbage to discover the intimate details of a dead age, and so old pornography certainly has interest to scholars.
Yes, seriously.Why do you think archaeologists spend years digging up ancient camp sites? Why do you think historians study ancient, and not so ancient wars and battles? Human sexuality is a significant driving force of human society. Why wouldn't we study it?
»» Submitted by»»» mnblrmkr at 4:50 PM on April 15
I understand that we have history. I'm not an idiot. Seesh. I guess I just never thought of sexuality as the same as unearthing dinosaur bones or ancient Mayan temples.
Speaking of history, Neil Diamond is coming to the Xcel on July 19!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Swoon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
»» Submitted by kevin at 5:18 PM on April 15
Minnesota has a serious Neil Diamond jones
»» Submitted by The Rat at 5:25 PM on April 15
Kevin could also use ILL ferchrissakes. If the library does not have the book they can borrow it from another library or another system for you. Pretty basic library service
I know, and I do. I worked in one for 4.5 years. I know all about OCLC numbers and all that jazz.
I don't eat squirrel. I don't eat turkey either, unless I think it's chicken, which I did today. Now I wonder if all turkey is that good.
»» Submitted by kevin at 5:29 PM on April 15
If the county hadn't bailed them out now, how many more libraries would they have closed. They built a nice new downtown library, but it wasn't open nearly enough hours as most of their libraries. That's why the county has always had the edge. They are open many more hours for patrons to visit their libraires. The county has already reopened several closed librairies and they plan to expand the hours at more to come. They even expanded the hours at several suburban librairies. THEY AREN'T OF ANY VALUE IF THEY AREN'T OPEN SO PEOPLE CAN USE THEM!!
»» Submitted by Mpls Joe at 11:18 AM on April 16
The concept of a library is archaic at best. They don't embrace technology, they file stuff away on paper catalogs, and their shelves are filled with a bunch of outdated material - the new books are always checked out and the waiting list is miles long. Besides that, it's basically a homeless shelter w/ books.
It's so much easier to go on the internet. It's faster and more up-to-date. Granted, you need to know if your source is reliable. Why waste an afternoon searching through a bunch of outdated books when you can load up Google and have your info at your fingertips within 2 seconds?
Libraries don't have much of a place in the 21st century. Like movie rental stores, TV repair shops, and used CD stores, libraries will be gone within 20 years.
We dont properly fund them because there isn't much of a demand as there was 20/30 years ago. Any why do people think they're entitled to free reading material? Free up those tax dollars for other stuff like better road maintainance.
I'd rather go to a Barnes & Noble. They let you drink coffee, relax, answer your cell phone, and have lively conversation. Libraries have primitive rules that our society doesn't relate to anymore.
»» Submitted by old fashioned library at 2:09 PM on April 16
old fashioned library: You probably have not been in a library in over 20 years. Paper catalogs were outmoded in the 1950's when librarians devised the electronic coding MARC, while the waited for computers to catch up. Books? Seriously you are deluded if you thing that the bulk of a library's information is in the stacks. It's in the databases which tend to make up more than 50% of most acquisitions budgets. As for demand, you make very conflicting statements: the waiting list for books is miles long and then you go on to say that there isn't as much demand as there was 20/30 years ago. Which is it? Your lack of knowledge is shocking. Libraries serve more people in more media than ever before. Check the stats. Waiting lists are long in number of people, but short in time frame, as the libraries base their purchasing on the number of sign ups of the list. A friend told me that Ramsey county buys based on the number of people on the list. Did you think they just bought one copy for the several million people who use the system?
It makes me furious, the amount of misinformation spewed by the ignorant. But if you are information illiterate you believe anything you hear or read.
»» Submitted by Lunch! at 2:21 PM on April 16
Any why do people think they're entitled to free reading material?
This is absolutely, without a doubt, the single stupidest thing I've ever read on the internet.
Bixby, your list is great.
I love libraries. I go to several. They are all full and busy with kids doing something other than watching TV or playing video games; folks reading the paper, magazines, books; kids and adults doing research for school; people doing research for their businesses or job searches; tax documents to pick up; storytelling hour; lines to use the internet if you can't afford a computer of your own; free access to music, films, and TV shows; material in multiple languages; reference books; instruction manuals; back issues of magazines; adolescents who are not doing drugs or having sex; a safe dry warm place to sit for people of all ages; families doing something together; teachers checking out a hundred books to bring to their students at school; free classes to learn English for all; announcements of talks by writers and artists; smart people who can answer my questions or tell me how to answer my own. Information, fun, beauty.
No bacon, though, but the Central library has a cafe and great people-watching opportunities.
»» Submitted by Joanna at 3:09 PM on April 16
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